Curse

Unreal Havoc · Aug 10, 2009, 09:21 AM // 09:21

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Originally Posted by Hermos

Well then the only other definition of PvE would be "fun", wouldn't it? If nothing is a necessity, then neither is nerfing SF or UWSC.

That depends on your definition of fun.

Guild Wars used to be a game about skill, long gone are those days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadgerzFTW

Yeah, but, the problem here is that assassins in PvE are completely useless without SF. you said it yourself, SF or GTFO is how it is with assassins, not other classes. Other classes actually have a use in most everything else, including most other SC's. Maybe some even have more than one use! (besides paragons). Devoting most of a bar to dagger attacks is useless in PvE, and critscythe is decent but most groups would rather use something else.

I only use three dagger attack skills in PvE, four at the most (I find Assassins who literally fill their entire bar with attacks skills a joke). Assassins can do a stupid amount of damage to high profile targets rather quickly, and should be given much more credit than they are actually being given.

The problem here isn't the Assassin class, but the general mindset of PuGs due to bad experiences with Assassin players in the past who don't use them properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Completely agreed. I could careless how good their dagger attacks are...I still have to rush into the fray with shitty armor and no decent defense skill other than perma SF.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't say at least 95al was that shitty (110 if you're using Nightstalkers, 103+ while running into battle if you have a shield equipped)). I wouldn't use Shadow Form in general PvE either, I just don't see the need to.

If you feel the need to play like a Warrior and not an Assassin then play a Warrior.

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All non-secondary defense options for sins have some ridiculous requirements or downside. Ridiculously low uptime (feigned neutrality), being blinded as a melee class (shadow sanctuary), delayed heal that requires attacking to have full effect (Shadow refuge), ends on attack (dark escape + feigned neutrality), teleporting to random location and risk the chance of getting aggro on a backline char (heart of shadows)....the only decent one is critical agility, and even that requires constant attacking to be kept up and is stripable.

Monks/Necromancers and cover enchantments are nice.

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Sins also have to spend energy for attacks AND have to execute a combo in order....all that and sins still get overshadowed in damage by warrior auto attacking and spamming adrenaline attacks...and the war can still fit in a healing skill without extra attribute investment (Lion's comfort), an IAS (without secondary investment), a superior IMS compared to dash (also without secondary investment), and also the totally superior SY! which outclassed all the shitty PvE skills that sins have.

Assassins can pack Save Yourselves (I know I do if I don't have a Paragon in my party). Critical Agility is also an Assassin primary IAS. Energy isn't an issue (if it is you're a bad Assassin). In the auto attacking department they are weak, but in the skilll damage department they give Warriors a run for their money in my opinion. I don't see whats so hard about using a skill chain to kill stuff in PvE. Also I don't think I've ever packed a self heal in the best part of a year now. There's just no need to in general PvE if your team is half decent. Let the Monks/Necromancers do their job.

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As for shadow form....it doesn't really overpowers anything outside of UWSC and FowSC. Change the mobs in UW/FoW, leave the skill.

It's used alot more outside of FoWSC and UWSC than you actually think. Go take a look on PvXWiki.

Targren · Aug 10, 2009, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

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As for shadow form....it doesn't really overpowers anything outside of UWSC and FowSC. Change the mobs in UW/FoW, leave the skill.

It's used alot more outside of FoWSC and UWSC than you actually think. Go take a look on PvXWiki.

Re-read what you quoted. Being used outside FoWSC/UWSC doesn't mean it's as insane as it is in those.

When a 55 monk with illusionary weaponry kills faster than an SF sin...

Unreal Havoc · Aug 10, 2009, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Re-read what you quoted. Being used outside FoWSC/UWSC doesn't mean it's as insane as it is in those.

When a 55 monk with illusionary weaponry kills faster than an SF sin...

Killing speed doesn't matter, because the selling power of Shadow Form is it's invincibility. Otherwise people would be clearing UW and FoW with 55 IW Monks.

Assassins are becoming a big trend in HM dungeon runs now, most notably Kathandrax, Shards of Oor, and Bogroots. They are either playing an integral part in speeding up a run immensely, or in actually clearing it full stop.

You can also clear areas in DoA for cash fairly easily on HM aswell.

Targren · Aug 10, 2009, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Killing speed doesn't matter, because the selling power of Shadow Form is it's invincibility. Otherwise people would be clearing UW and FoW with 55 IW Monks.

UW and FoW are the exceptions, not the rule. Killing speed/power most definitely matters, because it's utterly worthless in a solo farm to be able to stand around indefinitely but unable to kill anything. You don't get a lot of drops that way.

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Assassins are becoming a big trend in HM dungeon runs now, most notably Kathandrax, Shards of Oor, and Bogroots. They are either playing an integral part in speeding up a run immensely, or in actually clearing it full stop.

As part of a full, and usually a pretty mixed team (FS/QZ Ranger, smiters, etc...) They're just serving as tanks in those cases. Hardly OP.

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You can also clear areas in DoA for cash fairly easily on HM aswell.

"Easily" is extremely subjective.

Snow Bunny · Aug 10, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Why is PvE not fun without doing SC's?

because PvE is too easy...why? Because skills are hopelessly overbuffed - SEE: SHADOW FORM.

If you just nerfed the hell out of 80% of PvE it'd be pretty challenging again.

Spiritweaver · Aug 10, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Still needs nerfing, lol.

Unreal Havoc · Aug 10, 2009, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

UW and FoW are the exceptions, not the rule. Killing speed/power most definitely matters, because it's utterly worthless in a solo farm to be able to stand around indefinitely but unable to kill anything. You don't get a lot of drops that way.

UW and FoW are not the only areas where Shadow Form is being abused.

Also farming with an Assassin is far from slow. The point I was making however was the selling power of an Assassin is the ability to pretty much stand up to almost anything and still deal out good damage via specific builds.

That is why they see so much play in speed clear teams.

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As part of a full, and usually a pretty mixed team (FS/QZ Ranger, smiters, etc...) They're just serving as tanks in those cases. Hardly OP.

Kathandrax Sinway? SoO Sinway? Bogroots Sinway?

I'm not talking about SoO 600/Smite with a Sin playing the bitch role here. These are full Assassin speed clear teams that are very quickly catching on.

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"Easily" is extremely subjective.

Completing Ravenheart Gloom on HM with Sliver Perma and Bonder isn't hard to do, seriously.

At the end of the day having a maintainable invincibility is bad for the game. While 600/Smite can also be called into question the subject of the current debate is Shadow Form and in it's current state is just turning the game into farm wars and just plain not fun anymore.

Simath · Aug 10, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

lol Speed Clears

scrubs

Targren · Aug 10, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

the subject of the current debate is Shadow Form and in it's current state is just turning the game into farm wars and just plain not fun anymore.

"Fun" is even more subjective than "easily."

X-Plosiv · Aug 10, 2009, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I'm not talking about SoO 600/Smite with a Sin playing the bitch role here. These are full Assassin speed clear teams that are very quickly catching on.
.

QFT. 15-30 min for SooSC 8x sin.

AtomicMew · Aug 11, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

The key word was "need"

You don't "need" ecto to do PvE.

That's a ridiculous argument. If you bothered to read the next line, I already stated why.

"This is a game, everything is a luxury. You don't NEED anything. There is nothing essential in the game, not max armor, not max weapons, because Guild Wars itself isn't essential. "

Anyway, this is a almost completely irrelevant topic to begin with.

Bryant Again · Aug 11, 2009, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Why is PvE not fun without doing SC's?

because PvE is too easy...why? Because skills are hopelessly overbuffed - SEE: SHADOW FORM.

If you just nerfed the hell out of 80% of PvE it'd be pretty challenging again.

Just making sure everyone reads this.

Since this thread is simply going batshit crazy, I'm going to ask two questions:

1. Why shouldn't Shadow Form be nerfed?

2. Why should one person be able to solo an entire area tailored for 8?

MisterB · Aug 11, 2009, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

1. Why shouldn't Shadow Form be nerfed?

2. Why should one person be able to solo an entire area tailored for 8?

1. Irrelevant. Why did ANet buff it in the first place? Their dev update basically said they want to give players invincibility for "fun." As long as they play one of the professions out of 10. ANet chose to do this to the game.

2. See 1.

@ Everyone else: Don't start with the crappy consumables argument that any profession can perma form; the fact is that Assassins may maintain Shadow Form without them.

Sarevok Thordin · Aug 11, 2009, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Just making sure everyone reads this.

Since this thread is simply going batshit crazy, I'm going to ask two questions:

1. Why shouldn't Shadow Form be nerfed?

2. Why should one person be able to solo an entire area tailored for 8?

I'm guessing the SCers (and some PvErs in general) can't cope without an "I win" button.

x sithis x · Aug 11, 2009, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

They nerfed it a long time ago. Dying Nightmares have rend enchantments.

lol i was readin the first page & read this ... the dying nightmares werent implemented to nerf uwsc ... they were to stop 55 bots lol

MisterB · Aug 11, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by x sithis x

lol i was readin the first page & read this ... the dying nightmares werent implemented to nerf uwsc ... they were to stop 55 bots lol

Do you know what sarcasm is? That is a rhetorical question.

El Perma Shadow · Aug 11, 2009, 02:14 AM // 02:14

well, if they nerf any SC there will be hell to pay, or at least people stop paying for random stuff therefore anet loses money stop worrying they wont nerf anything to do with SF and/or SC's until GW2 comes out

Bryant Again · Aug 11, 2009, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

1. Irrelevant...

If that's the case, so is this entire forum and any forum for any game in the world.

We're here to discuss, and if you're not going to answer my question, why are you talking to me?

Not to mention, this *is* an online game. It's always subject to change.

MisterB · Aug 11, 2009, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If that's the case, so is this entire forum and any forum for any game in the world.

We're here to discuss, and if you're not going to answer my question, why are you talking to me?

Not to mention, this *is* an online game. It's always subject to change.

No need to get defensive. Your argument and your question are not with me, but with ArenaNet, as it is their game. Discuss it all you wish.

I am simply not optimistic of any forthcoming change or nerf given the fact that the skill was buffed in the first place. Apparently, ANet feels easy, permanent Shadow Form is A-OK.

UnChosen · Aug 11, 2009, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

I don't know about you but I wouldn't say at least 95al was that shitty (110 if you're using Nightstalkers, 103+ while running into battle if you have a shield equipped)). I wouldn't use Shadow Form in general PvE either, I just don't see the need to. If you feel the need to play like a Warrior and not an Assassin then play a Warrior.

Where did you get 95al?...I might be missing something, but sins have only 70 base armor the last time I checked. All those armor insignia takes away HP from the sin, making him pathetic against armor ignoring damage. Either way...warrior still have 20 extra armor against physical plus a huge selection of stance and skills to improve durability.....sins have only one that is decent and can be stripped. And ya, people do play warriors instead of sins, and alot of people from PvE and PvP agree that sins are far inferior to Wars and Dervs in all shapes and forms.

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Monks/Necromancers and cover enchantments are nice.

Or use a derv with their OWN superior defense enchants + covers, or a war that doesn't even need enchantments....the monks' enchantment have better uses like defending the backline perhaps.

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Assassins can pack Save Yourselves (I know I do if I don't have a Paragon in my party). Critical Agility is also an Assassin primary IAS. Energy isn't an issue (if it is you're a bad Assassin). In the auto attacking department they are weak, but in the skilll damage department they give Warriors a run for their money in my opinion. I don't see whats so hard about using a skill chain to kill stuff in PvE. Also I don't think I've ever packed a self heal in the best part of a year now. There's just no need to in general PvE if your team is half decent. Let the Monks/Necromancers do their job.

Wars and Dervs can also use skill for more damage you know....and their attacks are generally more effective than sins. Wounding strike anyone? Not to mention if the sins gets interrupted they're stuck doing nothing for X sec. And I rather NOT save a sin that rush in, get his critical agility stripped, wasted half my energy to prot him, and then blame me for not covering his enchant and save his ass. I have other squishy casters to worry about. I've seen Wars and Dervs where their HP never drop below 80% and still do nice damage, can't say the same for sins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-Plosiv

QFT. 15-30 min for SooSC 8x sin.

And why would 8 perma sin just get together just to clear a dungeon? To get those valuable loot that sell for 50g ea? For the chance that one of them might get the rare end game chest that drops with 0.000001% chance? Most of the EOTN dungeons are ridiculously stressful for the crappy stuff they contain with the exception of extremely rare end chest items....I've known no one that actually want to repeat those dungeons with or without perma. Everyone I know avoid those dungeons like the plague and literally beg for 600/smite run when its necessary for Z-quest.

No one ever want to go through multilevel dungeons to farm one super rare drop....its far easier to just solo farm anything and build up gold to buy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

UW and FoW are the exceptions, not the rule. Killing speed/power most definitely matters, because it's utterly worthless in a solo farm to be able to stand around indefinitely but unable to kill anything. You don't get a lot of drops that way.

As part of a full, and usually a pretty mixed team (FS/QZ Ranger, smiters, etc...) They're just serving as tanks in those cases. Hardly OP.

Exactly what I was getting at. When there's nothing truly worthwhile to do having "invincibility" is pointless...Wow I can do a perma sin wilderness tour of the entire game woohoo!

And thank god for their role at tanking...I can't remember how many times a perma save my pug groups from the power creep 200 dmg melee monsters + a monk that can't prot.